America may talk about being “great again”, but perhaps it is time to bow the knee. And Europe should join in.
In the final CNE podcast of 2025, host Evert van Vlastuin brings together Jeff Fountain (Schuman Centre of European Studies, based in the Netherlands) and Kevin Swanson (pastor and podcast host from Denver, Colorado) for a frank cross‑Atlantic conversation. The big question: are America and Europe simply in decline, or is God quietly at work in ways the headlines miss?
Swanson arrived with strong language about Europe as the “post-Christian” continent, in a [podcast](https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermons/2212565333861) after the Munich Security Conference. The “worship of man” had replaced the “fear of God”, he said, and the pro-life movement in Europe had shrunk to only seven pro‑lifers in the Netherlands. In this CNE conversation, those claims are put to the test.
In the CNE podcast, Kevin Swanson cheerfully admits that he sometimes uses an “Eeyore’s viewpoint”, referring to the pessimistic friend of Winnie the Pooh, in combination with an “occasional hyperbole”.
Jeff speaks about the “paradox of Europe”. On one side, it is most shaped by the Gospel and its rejection. However, he also sees surprising signs of hope, from high-profile converts like Ayaan Hirsi Ali to growing migrant congregations in cities like Amsterdam and London, and a “quiet revival” among Gen Z.
Kevin, by contrast, looks at “despicably low” church attendance rates and the power of humanist education, and wonders whether Europe’s foundations are already rotten.
Jeff Fountain is the author of *Deeply Rooted*, in which he explains the basis of European integration from the Christian convictions of Robert Schuman, who pleaded for reconciliation between nations.
Kevin says that he disagrees with the “popular eschatology” among American Evangelicals that says that Europe is the “beast” from the Apocalypse. But he still sees that the Enlightenment is destroying the foundation of the culture and that humanist ideology is guiding the schools on the continent.
During the podcast recording, the conversation takes a surprising turn: Swanson admits America needs less bravado and more repentance. Kevin disagrees with the continuous attacks on Europe from Donald Trump. He says he is no fan of the American President. “He is an accident waiting to happen”, although he had praised his re-election in an earlier podcast.
At the end, Jeff and Kevin agree that America and Europe are “equally in trouble”, also looking at the abortion legislation. They both feel “betrayed” by the present administration in Washington. Kevin: “I am working for a MAHA: Make America Humble Again.” But so far, he has not sold more than eight hats, he says.
With CNE podcast host Evert van Vlastuin, Jeff and Kevin share concerns about the transatlantic cooperation within NATO and other bodies.